BK asked:


A question was asked for arguments supporting the theory of Evolution. Several reponders wrote that humans and chimpanzees share 90% of their DNA.

Two thought on that:
1) This would assume a common ancestor, which has not been found
... and that would see to invalidate any proof of that statement as supporting the evoultionary relationship of man and chimpanzee, because:
2) A Creator could have made the two species similar in DNA, though they are distinct in existence, without the ability to reproduce except as their own distinct species, etc.

It does not prove a scientific common ancestral link as per the theory of Evolution. Similar DNA does not prove evolution in many like species, because there is an abundant lack of evidence for it, specifically fossil, to support the connection of ancestry between similar species.

What about evidence for these connections of species that are to have anciently developed? Similar DNA would not seem to be proof scientifically.
Adam: I think we would have found it by now... I don't buy the"we haven't found it yet" argument.
Balaam: I though science required proof.
Similarity does not disprove creation. Just because you think God should not have done it.
Gorgeous TX: nor is there for a person who will accept God as he is, not as they prefer him to be.

The Name Book: Over 10,000 Names, Their Meanings, Origins, and Spritual Significance

J2a1* asked:


Or does one have to convert to a formal religion called Noachide Judaism or something?

...........................................................

Background: (Repeated for those who may not have read my prior question)

I am asking because I have discovered that most Jewish men according to DNA studies share a single middle eastern recent common ancestor. For example, almost 87% of Cohens belong to haplogroup J as do nearly 40% of Jews, who don’t even live in the Middle East.

In my case, my father and mother are from India. We look and classify as East Indians by race. However, according to our myth of origin, my paternal ancestors (deep ancestry) came from the Middle East, traveling thru Northern Iran/ (Persia), to settle in India, 800 years ago. I didn’t think it was possible. So, I decided to test this myth/ legend, and approached FamilytreeDNA.

http://www.familytreedna.com/landing/jewish-ancestry.aspx

According to the DNA study, less than 1 in 1000 Indians are paternally related to me. In other words, there aren’t too many Indians related to my father's family in India. We were definitely recent immigrants to India. The question was from where? The results suggest that my paternal origins are “significantly” shared with Ashkenazi Jews of Bessarabia/ Moldova. According to the results, I am 20 times more likely to find someone closely paternally, related to me, in Bessarabia/ Moldova than India. I belong to haplogroup subclade J2a1* one of more than 800 Y DNA haplogroup subclades in the human population:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index09.html

It turns out that mine is also the most common haplogroup among Jews, Samaritans and the Bene Israel of India population. According to the DNA lab, my sons and my sons' sons so on and so forth will all carry this mutation, which is common among Jews, no matter what race of girl they marry. For me that was a big wow. Therefore, I am interested in knowing how Jews think about God.

................................................................................
Going forward: Wow, I'm not sure if I understand your question.

We all come from Noah after the flood. Our DNA (genes) are of the HUMAN kind and each race was formed by segregating itself for generations thus producing a defined race, appearance and culture.

God put race distinction into our genes from the start of humanity ( Adam and Eve) all we had to do is isolate it to get the variations of people.

J2: I highly recommend visiting https://www.familytreedna.com/

I have a friend whose grandma was N. American from a reservation. All other grandparents were Caucasian. He looks white. He is married to a Caucasian. His daughters are blue eyed blonde Caucasians. Races are superficial. Science has enabled us to identify more than 800 different deep male ancestral lines. -good luck.
alonyoav: Genetics is irrelevant in determining whether someone is Jewish or not. Unless your maternal line is Jewish, you are not Jewish. Since you would trace any Jewish family lines through your paternal line, you would not be Jewish under Jewish law.

J: Which is why I am asking about the Noachide laws. Just wondering how far does the fruit fall from the tree (in a couple of thousand years)?
Cher: The only one in question tends to be the first about not doing idolatry.

J2a1*: Like Obama, my grandfather was an Orthodox Muslim. He retired as a Judge from the British Indian court system. He had a degree in Law. Members of my family also held senior positions as governors and judges under the Moguls of India. The family legend claims we came out of Arabia (not Bessarabia) and settled in Northern Iran in the 7th century. Then, moved to India about 800 years ago after the Muslim conquest of India. However, Arabia is J1 not J2. Arabia is not on my RAO page. I match as many Arabs as I match Indians.

Unlike grandpa, my parents & I accept the Torah, Gospel and Quran as scripture. I attended Protestant Elementary School in England. A strict unitarian, I am a member of the Unitarian Universalist congregation. I regard Jesus as a prophet. I believe Muhammad brought one more scripture, without asking anyone to abandon the Gospel or Torah. So am I a Noachide?
allonyaov: Genetics is irrelevant in determining whether someone is Jewish or not. Unless your maternal line is Jewish, you are not Jewish. Since you would trace any Jewish family lines through your paternal line, you would not be Jewish under Jewish law.

J2: I dont think that would change the biological nature of the relationship. For example, after people convert to Judaism, their non Jewish parents would remain biological parents. They may continue to love their child even if the child didnt want to acknowledge his relationship with his non Jewish parents.

However, since I am not Jewish, patrilineal tribal identity can be important to me. I am interested in knowing whether Bessarabian Jews, being the most closely related "population" to me on earth , would regard me (under their Jewish belief system) as someone who would have a reward in the after life (as a Noachide). Or have I fallen so far from the tree that my soul is lost?
Cher: (Edit: Obviously I missed the JV & Unitarian point of the question...)

J2: I missed your edit and started another question to get the answer to the question. lol. Hope you will answer it too. I will give you the best answer on this question. thanks.

neil s asked:


Paternity tests show, based on DNA, that a child has a certain father. It shows ancestry of the baby. But this is exactly what supports evolutionary science. With just the DNA evidence, we can say evolution happened, no fossils are needed. This is just one part of the overall field of medicine that is completely informed by evolutionary biology. Is this why Creationists are against premarital sex and for monogamy, because they have no other way to say who a baby's father is?

J2a1* asked:


Like Obama, my grandfather was an Orthodox Muslim. The family legend claims we came out of Arabia (not Bessarabia) and settled in Northern Iran in the 7th century. Then, moved to India about 800 years ago after the Muslim conquest of India.

Unlike grandpa, my parents & I accept the Torah, Gospel and Quran as scripture. I attended a Protestant Elementary School in England. A strict unitarian, I am a member of a Unitarian Universalist congregation. I regard Jesus as a prophet. I believe Muhammad brought one more scripture, without asking anyone to abandon the Gospel or Torah. So am I a Noachide in the eyes of Orthdox Jews? To explain why I am interested in the answer, here is some background:
......................................................................................

(Repeated for those who may not have read my prior question)

I am asking because I have discovered that most Jewish men according to DNA studies share a single middle eastern recent common ancestor. For example, almost 87% of Cohens belong to haplogroup J as do nearly 40% of Jews, who don’t even live in the Middle East.

In my case, my father and mother are from India. We look and classify as East Indians by race. However, according to our myth of origin, my paternal ancestors (deep ancestry) came from the Middle East, traveling thru Northern Iran/ (Persia), to settle in India, 800 years ago. I didn’t think it was possible. So, I decided to test this myth/ legend, and approached FamilytreeDNA.

http://www.familytreedna.com/landing/jewish-ancestry.aspx

According to the DNA study, less than 1 in 1000 Indians are paternally related to me. In other words, there aren’t too many Indians related to my father's family in India. We were definitely recent immigrants to India. The question was from where? The results suggest that my paternal origins are “significantly” shared with Ashkenazi Jews of Bessarabia/ Moldova. According to the results, I am 20 times more likely to find someone closely paternally, related to me, in Bessarabia/ Moldova than India. I belong to haplogroup subclade J2a1* one of more than 800 Y DNA haplogroup subclades in the human population:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index09.html

It turns out that mine is also the most common haplogroup among Jews, Samaritans and the Bene Israel of India population. According to the DNA lab, my sons and my sons' sons so on and so forth will all carry this mutation, which is common among Jews, no matter what race of girl they marry. For me that was a big wow.

.................................................................................

Once again. I am not Jewish so I understand why Jews would not consider a paternal tribal relationship to me as important. However, that doesnt mean, as a non Jewish person, I cannot be interested in the views of the only population in the world with a significant number of people that share a recent paternal common ancestor with me. Therefore, I would like to know if they would regard me as a Noachide or a lost soul in the afterlife.
Fireball: isnt it more important to know what God thinks?? we must be born again or theres no more living....way too long..

J2: When I meet him, I will ask him. For now I am working with what I think.
The haplogroup is NOT "the most common" among Jews; it is "most common among Jews" meaning you find that haplogroup MOSTLY among self-identified Jews. There are other haplotypes that are more common among males self-identified as Jews.

J2: J is the most common. J2 haplogroup subclade is the most common haplogroup among

1. Jewish population.

2. Samaritan population

3. Bene Israel of India population.

What exactly are you are trying to say?
Trish,

http://www.ask.inwiki.org/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)

though typically Haplogroup J2 is more than twice as common among Jews. In Jewish populations overall, J1 constitutes 19.0% of the Ashkenazim results and 11.9% of the Sephardic results (Semino et al. 2004)(Behar et al. 2004). ... J2 Haplogroup Ashkenazi Jews (23.2%), Sephardi Jews (28.6%), …
Tish: There are other haplotypes that are more common among males self-identified as Jews.

J2: haplotypes mutate rapidly. At times mutating gets so bad that people who are unrelated begin to share haplotypes. This is known as convergence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplotype_convergence

Similarly, people who share a recent deep ancestry can have diverging haplotype. Which is why many geneticists dont pay attention to haplotypes in deep ancestry.

In my case, I dont expect to belong to the most common Jewish modal "haplotype" for the J2 Jewish population. After all, not even the Bessarabian Ashkenazi Jews share that "J2 Jewish modal" . This doesnt mean that they are not related to the J2 Jews who have the modal. They simply may have divereged. And my ancestors who separated from the Bessarabians 1,500 years ago could just as easily have diverge even further. Therefore, the gold standard is haplogroups not haplotypes in deep ancestry.
Tish: There are other haplotypes that are more common among males self-identified as Jews.

J2:

You are fooling yourself & misleading everyone else on the board, with such statements.

For example,

http://www.txczgs.org/Genetic2.html

“Haplotypes are used in normal genealogical research while haplogroups are used to determine one's "deep ancestry". Haplogroups form a bridge between genealogy and anthropology.”

So everyone in the field knows haplotypes are only good for examining relations between people going back a few generations -an interest to genealogists. Even then one needs to to use extended haplotypes and guard against convergence (false positives).

Can I ask, who put you up to this line of criticism in a case of deep ancestry?
Sheynein: Jews will be more interested in how you live your life, not in who your ancestors were, nor what your genetic haplotype is, nor even what religion you nominally identify with.

J2: Thankyou for your post, it is the first answer that truly dealt with my question: Would Orthodox Jews regard me as lost or as a Noachide (a good person who obeys the 7 laws ). Although, I am not sure if the Conservative view is same.

To your point about what would interest Jews, I agree and which is why I said, ".... I understand why Jews would not consider a paternal tribal relationship to me as important. However, that doesnt mean, as a non Jewish person, I cannot be interested in the views of the only population in the world with a significant number of people that share a recent paternal common ancestor with me. Therefore, I would like to know if they would regard me as a Noachide or a lost soul in the afterlife."
James Dean: "And since Muslims believe Jews shall go to Hell if they refuse Islam, then I believe it's logical that you'd be a Muslim! What are you gonna lose? In fact, you'll gain a lot! Makes sense doesn't it? That's why I converted to Ash'ari (Sunni) Islam although I was born an Orthodox Jew."

J2: I do not believe that Jews will go to Hell or Christians for that matter. However, thanks for sharing why you converted. Although, you did not answer the question.

asked:


This is wrong. The trend of common ancestry is clearly demonstrated, not just between humans and apes, but among all life. DNA evidence more than makes up for whatever theists think is missing.

helio462 asked:


-a funny semantic game is played when Christians talk about evolution. They claim that evolution is also a faith in something that does not have any proof. The truth is that there is sufficient evidence to at least see evolution as very likely. They foolishly cling to the to the fact that evolution is just a theory, not scientific fact. The truth is that even the concept of “gravity” is also “just a theory.” It’s practically impossible to “prove” evolution as fact because you would need to find the remnants (corpses, dna samples) of an animal’s ancestry dating back hundreds and thousands generations. Why can’t more Christians realize that there are more pertinent things to do on this earth (as far as god’s will for us is concerned) that to attack earnest inquiry. Why can’t you believe in evolution and in god?